TA111 (Beamish)

Response 11 (to C10, Müller)


by Peter Beamish
23 December 2008, posted 3 January 2009


[HM] Time is a cargo.

[PB] [No!  Scalar labels of time ("timetags") & scalar labels of "Rhythmic Time" ("Timetags") CAN BE "cargos," on/in "mass &/or energy vectors. If such vectors reach a "Mental Thought Process, MTP" then they can become "Real TIME" (where "TIME" is defined by: "time t + Time T").]

[HM] Experience is primary and flows. The counting (to transform the flow of experience into a structure called 'time') is done by humans within experience. You can carry that time with you like a wrist-watch, but it can be translated into other people's time.

[PB] :  But, "TIME" does NOT flow! All "Real TIME" is: "NOW TIME." What you "count" are scalar labels of your past thro' future, which form "durations," and NOT "Real TIME." Reality has three "Orthogonal Spacial Dimensions, (OSDs)" which are mind-independent. [All dimensions should read as: "spacial dimensions."]

[HM] Dimensions, scalars, vectors, and numbers generally, are human instruments-

[PB] [Not just humans! _ALL LIFE_ can utilize such "instruments."]

[HM] -tool-structures used to handle experience (if it's reliable, the result may be called 'reality' in an as-if fashion after structuring). ->

[PB] OK.]

[HM]They are and remain human-mind instruments-

[PB] No!! All of life has mind.]

[HM]-and therefore not mind-independent (i.e., - not ontic = metaphysical).

[PB]  [Such "instruments" CAN BE outside mind, and as such, mind-independent.]

[HM] Everything one can think about, including what you call mind-edges,-

[PB] [Such are the exterior and interior boundaries of an "organism's mind."]

[HM]- includes subjects.

[PB] [Subjects CAN BE "Mental Thought Processes, MTPs."]

[HM] Temporal concepts are quantified by counting (measuring), by one or many
minds. - - -

[PB] [And these are "temporal scalar labels," not "Real TIMES."]

[HM] Scientific consensus concerns tools, methods, procedures, operations of and by people, not metaphysics. - - ->

[PB]["Scientific consensus" concerns other measurements, at other places & at other times, reproducing data.]

[HM] If they were mind-independent you would know nothing about them,- -

[PB] [No! Memory (i.e. old photos) can be mind-independent until you recall them.]

[HM] I have never seen an explanation by those who advocate the existence of mind-independent realities for how structures that are not in the mind can get into (be received by, as you say) the mind.

[PB] [Clock scalar labels are NOT in/within a mind until an "MVP" transports them into a thought.] [For "Definition of Mind" see http://www.egroups.com/message/time/13743] [Other definitions: http://www.animalcontact.com/research/glossary.html]

[HM] They could not BECOME what you call mind-dependent; the reason is that the so-called onta are speculative extrapolations from human gestalt-formations, and START and always REMAIN as such within the mind.

[PB] [One's mind involves "Now TIME," & you may be referring above to one's memory.]

[HM] If you postulate mind-independence of entities, you do that within your mind.

[PB] [Au contraire! Such is done with the "consensus" of _many_ minds.]

[HM] -there are no thoughts without people who have them.

[PB] [ALL ORGANISMS must have thoughts ("MTPs") to survive, & education CAN BE mind-independent.]

[HM] What one can say is that 'three dimensions' are a useful mental tool-set

[PB] [Three Orthogonal Spacial Dimensions, "OSDs," are real, mind-independent vectors that exist everywhere independently of individual mind thought.]



Peter Beamish
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beamish (at) oceancontact.com >